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3500 swap details
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Six_Shooter Gender:Male
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 22, 2007 10:32 pm    Post subject: 3500 swap details Reply with quote

With the interest in swapping a 3500 (LX9, non VVT) into the 1st and 2nd gen J-body, starting a thread to document what needs to be done with possible solutions and issues that early swappers have come accross seemed to be a good idea.

This will be an ever evolving thread, where I will try to amalgamate as much info as I can into the first post, with credit going to those that contribute useful and helpful info.

3500 swap information starts here.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Reading through the 3400 swap details would be quite helpful as a basic idea of what needs to be as there are some similarities between the 3400 and 3500 swap.

Details here, click on install guide in the top menu.

Differences between the 3400 and 3500 swap include the following:


    -3500 uses a 56x crank trigger, and requires an external trigger to run with the genII iginition system. 2.8/3.1/3100/3400 use a 7x crank trigger.
    There has been word of one person creating a ring to replace the 56x trigger to install internally in the engine, but due to difficulty of set-up and creation of this item, an external trigger is recommended.

    -3500 Throttle body is electronic drive AKA "Throttle by wire", and will require a replacment with a cable actuated throttl body. A 3400 throttle bodu could be used, other possibilities are 4.3L Vortec TB from '98 to '01 S-series, LSx, Northstar. All throttle bodies will require an adaptor, as there are no known bolt on replacements.

    -Front mount will need to be custom, it is different than the 3400 mount. (Will provide pics to what I have created)

    -A/C retention. There are no bolt holes in the 3500 block that will hold the A/C compressor from the genII 2.8/3.1. (The mount I have created solves this however.)

    -Exhaust. The OEM 3500 Exhaust manifolds can not be used in the 1/st/2nd gen J-body. At least not the rear 3500 manifold. It points at the steering rack, and does not allow enough space for a downpipe to be fabricated. A few people have mentioned using 2 3500 front manfolds as this should in theory provide good flow, due to the individual runners of this manifold. A custom Y-pipe will need to be made however.
    Some people suggest using the 3400 manifolds and crossover, and this will be the easiest and most cost effective solution. Custom headers seem to be the best solution over all, you are swapping for more power, and headers will help with that anyway.

    -Rear mount and tranny/stub shaft suffort will need to have one of the holes notched to bolt to the block, as the bolt holes were widened slightly on the 3500. The upper bolt hole needs to be slotted by 1/8" (a little more than 3mm) towards the top of the mount.
    I'll be cecking this soon, but there may be more to this than simply slotting the hole, it seems that these bolt holes may actually protrude slightly more from the block than they do on the genII or 3100/3400. I will post as soon as I know for sure.


3500 swappers

"Stock" swap (no internal changes)

wasas9

Modified swap (Internal and/or external changes)
whitelightning2

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Last edited by Six_Shooter on Wed Jul 02, 2008 9:47 pm; edited 2 times in total
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 22, 2007 11:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here is the writeup that was posted on my site before the server crashed..

If anyone has any questions or comments please post them up.


3500 Swap Details

Step 1 Obtain a 3500 LX9 from a 2004-2006 model year Malibu or G6

Step 2 Strip engine of all OBD2 junk (see list below)
- Both Knock sensors (one on each side of block)
- The oil pressure sensor
- The stock electronic throttle body
- The IAC motor
- The EGR
- The MAP (Save it!!!! It works on OBD1)
- Leave the CPS in however it won?t work
- Cut the leads to the Cam sensor off but leave the sensor in the block
- Remove any attached motor mounts
- Remove the newer alternator bracket
- Exhaust manifolds, if your engine has the crossover style then keep them but if it came from a Malibu you're out of luck unless you feel like doing a bit of custom work (more details upon request)
- Move the Belt tensioner from the old alt bracket to it's rightful place on the front timing cover.

Step 3 Fueling

- You can't use the 3500 fuel rail or injectors, pull them out.. save the pretty blue O rings and ditch the rail/injectors
- Find a 3100/3400 fuel rail
- The choice of injectors is up to you, the 3500 uses #24 stock but you can use the #19 from the 3400 with a modified injector harness or you can use some #24 injectors from a 3.4 DOHC which are Multech 1 and will require no mods to the harness. Use the new O rings and some engine assembly lube to install them in the rail and then into the LIM.
- Fuel lines are up to you, I usually go to the junk yard and search around the 3x00 equipped cars to find a set that follows the routing of the stock J-body ones. You'll probably have to find someone with a snap-on flare set if you have a 1991 or older to make the right fittings. If you have a 1992-1994 just find a set from a '02 Alero /Grand Am and they'll snap right onto your stock body fuel lines
- Upgrading the fuel pump is strongly advised. I used a pump for a 1991 TPI 350 Camaro to make sure it could supply the volume I needed.

Step 4 Spark/ignition/clearances

- Starter, use the one that came with the engine or any starter from a FWD 2.8/3.1/3100/3400. I'd suggest going with a newer one because they are lighter and sound neat
- CPS.. since (as of right now) the 3500's 58x setup won't work for the OBD1 system you need to purchase an external 7x setup. I highly recommend the TCE setup that Ben sells in the 60degreev6 store.
- You will have to rebuild the rear body-side mount for clearance, see pic (MNT-1)
- You will also have to make some clearance on the subframe for the external trigger. I recommend the use of a grinder with a 1/8 inch wheel to cut and then a 20lb sledge hammer to gently beat the hell out of the subframe. In the end you'll probably want to cut out that whole pad where the body side mount bolts to the passenger side subframe, That will give you plenty of clearance and space to work. Make sure to paint any exposed metal afterwards and WEAR SAFTEY GLASSES!

Step 5 Mounts

- On the front side of the 3500 the upper 2 bolt bosses are in the same exact location as the 3400, however they come out of the block slightly further. The lower 2 holes that were previously used for the JBP and Six shooter's old 3100/3400 mount are no longer there. Six Shooter is the only person who makes a 3500 front swap mount.
- The rear body-side mount will need to be modified to clear the TCE external crankshaft trigger, There are several ways to go about this, Pics of mine upon request.
- Rear engine mount will work fine and bolt up but you'll need to persuade it by enlarging the holes and a few quick hits with a 10lb sledge hammer.
- Carrier bearing mount is the same deal, oval the holes vertically a little until it lines up with the block bosses. It doesn't take much
- Tranny mount is the same as stock, same as the dogbone
- I'd suggest filling all your mounts with some kind of polyurethane.

Step 6 Throttle body

- I recommend the 65mm TB from TCE and the adapter from the 60degreeV6 store. It's pricey but it gets the job done and looks very nice.
- You can slso use a modified ford TB or anything else that will fit.
- The 3500 UIM has a 65mm inlet size and can be bored to 75MM if need be.

Step 7 Clutch/Tranny

- I trust you won't be putting this monster behind an auto tranny right? You'd have to be an idiot or a Beretta owner to do that
- Any aftermarket clutch for the 2.8/3.1 FWD will work. I'm using the stage 3 from EZ-Clutch
- Buy a NEW flywheel for this build and make DAMN SURE to use the manual tranny flywheel bolts. They are a bit longer than the auto ones. Using the shorter ones can strip out the already rare crank when you go to torque them down. I also recommend putting loctite red on those bolts and the pressure plate bolts. You really don't want those coming loose.
- Transmission, Use the stock V6 HM282 tranny OR if you can find a HM282 from a Beretta GTZ or any Quad-4 equipped car and swap the bell housing over to the V6 one you'll have a much better 4th gear and depending on the tranny different FDR (3.94 VS the stock 3.61). Keep in mind that a 3.94 FDR with the stock 1st gear is worthless over 250 WHP.

Step 8 Tying up loose ends and other details

- Other stuff like what hoses to use is covered in the 3.1-3400 swap section on www.domesticcrew.com. I'll add that information here with permission and time.
- Put it all together, hook it all up and fire that bitch up!
- Performance goodies are available if you know where to look, most stuff available for the 3100/3400 will work fine on the 3500. they all share the same cam and misc other parts.

And for gods sake, Tune it!!!!


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 23, 2007 1:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here is a picture from where I cut into my body and my rear motor mount bracket. If doing a stock swap, cutting that bracket doesn't make a big deal


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 26, 2007 8:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hey our 4T60-E can handle quite a bit if in good health. It's bigger than what the 3400 grand ams have! It was put behind 3800's so it's not that wimpy.

To contribute to this thread, I would like to suggest a TB choice. Yes you can use a mustang TB and it bolts up, but then you need to do something with not having an IAC, and you need a pigtail for the TPS, and the linkage is different...

Instead try a 3.5L intrigue TB. It's 65mm, IAC and TPS plug right in, and linkage should hook up. It has the linkage bracket that bolts to the TB. Just need to fab up an adapter to bolt it on. It has 3 bolt holes I believe.

There ya go, 65mm GM cable TB!

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 26, 2007 9:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is an information thread, keep the crap out of it.

/clean


For that 65mm TB, does it use the same 3 bolt pattern as the LSx and N* TB's ?

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 26, 2007 10:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm not 100% positive, but I'm thinking so. One could go to a parts store and compare gaskets....
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2008 4:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

great job! this was WAAAYY easier than reading 48pages of PCguy's swap over on 60degreev6,
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2008 8:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Would 3800 injectors be enough to feed a 3500? 3400 dohc engines are very rare around here to find on the streets or in junk yard.
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2008 11:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

issues wrote:
Would 3800 injectors be enough to feed a 3500? 3400 dohc engines are very rare around here to find on the streets or in junk yard.


which 3800 injectors?

Not sure about the ones from a N/A 3800, i'd imagine they'd be around 22lb/hr or so depending on the year.


You can use the stock 3400 injectors, they'll support a stock 3500.. It does put them at the high end of their duty cycle though which is why i reccomend something larger.

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 19, 2008 5:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

i am running stock 3400 injectors with the big fpr and it runs fine. but that are prob near their max
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 22, 2008 2:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just adding some more info:

Exhaust Manifolds: You can use the 3.1 stock manifolds along with downpipe. If you lack the equipment, money, time or knowhow this is the best option. Headers are ideal. However, it is best to port/gasket match the ports for better flow and less overlap. Since the 3500's heads ports are D shaped with the flat part down, it is easy to port the circular 3.1 manifolds so there is little overlap if any.

CTS: There are 3 ways to do this: 1. Get an adaptor from carquest, PN# G63120-1206 12mm-6FP. The adaptor goes into the head, and the stock 3 wire CTS works great. 2. Have a shop turn down a stock 3 wire CTS. 3. Drill and tap your own hole. Do whatever is easier for you. The adaptor was for me.

Fueling/Tune: I am currently running Multec 2 injectors (stock 3400) with the 2000+ FPR and a 3400 tune. No datalog yet, but it runs and idles perfect.

*Dave - I'll edit this post from now on to add more info if you want to add it into the main post.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 22, 2008 5:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

wasas9 wrote:
*Dave - I'll edit this post from now on to add more info if you want to add it into the main post.


Dave can do it, but I'm not dave.

Anyway, All new information will be added to a single post, when it can be organized and made co-herant. Just keep adding info, and I will work on a page to compile this info.

I would add new posts, as it will be easier to find the added info, instead of going back and noticing what may have been added.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 22, 2008 5:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I guess we could seperate it all into sections....
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 29, 2008 12:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dave, if you want me to setup an html page with seperated section and stuff, just PM me or IRC
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PostPosted: Sun May 25, 2008 11:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

looks like i forgot to add some recent information...


for those using the Jbody jackshaft and carrier bearing mount.. double check the alignment of the jackshaft, those rear bolt bosses moved slightly which causes the jackshaft to sit crooked in the diff.

my 91 diff was damaged because of this, the jackshaft was stuck in it and required a 20lb sledge and lots of cussing to remove. I ended up destroying the diff in the process and replacing it with a spare.


I strongly suggest locating a Jackshaft setup from a 88 Beretta GT 2.8 5 speed, make sure to get all the bolts and bracket that attaches it to the block. If you have a 91 and older tranny the bellhousing will have the bosses to bolt up the new setup, you will have to remove the current axle seal. 92+ trannies have the holes there but they'll probably have to be drilled/tapped. Be very carefull with this, you don't want to drill all the way through.

the block to housing bracket is aluminium which makes it very easy to modify.. oval the holes out and bolt it to the block first, then see where it lines up to the jackshaft housing, then oval the mounting holes so that it bolts up.

I picked up the entire assembly for $50 shipped from www.car-part.com


Pics of mine:



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