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89jyturbo 
Mboard Overdose
Joined: 03 Sep 2004
Posts: 964
Location: Lancaster, Pennsylvania
1989 Cavalier Z24
1989 Other
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_________________
www.khturbo.net
1989 Z24 5-speed
'02 3400 V6, 10psi of Turbo
Best 1/4- 12.2 at 119
328HP/352TQ to the wheels
HOT ROD Drag Week 2008 |
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fallenz24
I lost count...
Joined: 14 Nov 2003
Posts: 3760
Location: Pensacola, Florida
1991 Cavalier RS
1990 Cavalier Z24
1987 Fiero SE
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Hell yeah man! Now that is a down pipe! 
This was my old setup on my fiero. I loved all the spooleyness of it!
_________________
1990 Z24 - Modified 3100 ~ Recycled! Gave it's heart to the Fiero.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y5fN2n1egmE
1987 Fiero SE - 2.8L turbo/Auto ~ Kaboom! 3100 / 4T60E swap complete! |
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91z24
I lost count...
Joined: 24 Nov 2003
Posts: 3405
Location: Montreal, Quebec
1993 Cavalier Z24
1992 Cavalier Z24
1990 Cavalier Z24
1990 Cavalier Z24
1991 Cavalier Z24
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89jyturbo
Mboard Overdose
Joined: 03 Sep 2004
Posts: 964
Location: Lancaster, Pennsylvania
1989 Cavalier Z24
1989 Other
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| fallenz24 wrote: | Hell yeah man! Now that is a down pipe!
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Yeah, that pipe is 3" out of the turbo and a 3.5" tip. It made the car sound a lot meaner with a deeper tone. And my turbo screams like a 6.0 power stroke! Kind of kills the sleeper thing I got going. Well that and the FMIC (still debating whether or not to paint it black).
| 91z24 wrote: | Hey Kenton,
About your intake gasket:
This is what I got, metal FTW 
Come with bolts and everything thing too, more complete then felpro |
Is that the same set that pushed out for you? I have an attitude about parts made in China
_________________
www.khturbo.net
1989 Z24 5-speed
'02 3400 V6, 10psi of Turbo
Best 1/4- 12.2 at 119
328HP/352TQ to the wheels
HOT ROD Drag Week 2008 |
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|
Back to top |
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91z24
I lost count...
Joined: 24 Nov 2003
Posts: 3405
Location: Montreal, Quebec
1993 Cavalier Z24
1992 Cavalier Z24
1990 Cavalier Z24
1990 Cavalier Z24
1991 Cavalier Z24
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| 89jyturbo wrote: | | fallenz24 wrote: | Hell yeah man! Now that is a down pipe!
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Yeah, that pipe is 3" out of the turbo and a 3.5" tip. It made the car sound a lot meaner with a deeper tone. And my turbo screams like a 6.0 power stroke! Kind of kills the sleeper thing I got going. Well that and the FMIC (still debating whether or not to paint it black).
| 91z24 wrote: | Hey Kenton,
About your intake gasket:
This is what I got, metal FTW
Come with bolts and everything thing too, more complete then felpro |
Is that the same set that pushed out for you? I have an attitude about parts made in China |
Yes it is  But it was overtorqued  Didnt realized they needed less torque then the plastic one. My friend is running them for almost a year w/o any issue. My mechanic friend install them all the time w/o issue as well. I would trust them better then felpro personally.
_________________
CLICK HERE FOR MY 3400 TURBO HOW-TO |
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hifooy07
Dedicated Member
Joined: 11 Feb 2008
Posts: 174
Location: monongahela, Pennsylvania
1989 Cavalier Z24
1989 Bronco II
1977 Firebird Trans AM
1995 Cavalier
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| what did you use for your intake charge pipe or where did you get it? im copying your first setup and trying to gather parts. i was thinking of using 2" conduit with those rubber couplings? your car is bad ass.
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89jyturbo
Mboard Overdose
Joined: 03 Sep 2004
Posts: 964
Location: Lancaster, Pennsylvania
1989 Cavalier Z24
1989 Other
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Car ran good but was slow. 12.6 at 113 was my best. Was leaning it out all night long, but its still too rich. I hate to make big jumps towards lean, so I was taking baby steps.
I also think the larger drag radials gave me too tall a 'gear ratio' and I'm not making enough power to over come that. I lost most of my time in the first 1/8 mile, despite better 60' times (1.906 wa smy best).
Overall I should be happy though, car ran perfect and smooth, which is what I really want it to do on Drag Week. I'm just disappointed to throw money at it and have it run the same (slower actually).
_________________
www.khturbo.net
1989 Z24 5-speed
'02 3400 V6, 10psi of Turbo
Best 1/4- 12.2 at 119
328HP/352TQ to the wheels
HOT ROD Drag Week 2008 |
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Back to top |
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josephupson
Dedicated Member
Joined: 21 May 2006
Posts: 145
Location: home, Florida
1986 Other
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| What are you seeing for inlet temps now?
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89jyturbo
Mboard Overdose
Joined: 03 Sep 2004
Posts: 964
Location: Lancaster, Pennsylvania
1989 Cavalier Z24
1989 Other
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The highest they got was 110*f with ambients about 70*.
_________________
www.khturbo.net
1989 Z24 5-speed
'02 3400 V6, 10psi of Turbo
Best 1/4- 12.2 at 119
328HP/352TQ to the wheels
HOT ROD Drag Week 2008 |
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|
Back to top |
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josephupson
Dedicated Member
Joined: 21 May 2006
Posts: 145
Location: home, Florida
1986 Other
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| 89jyturbo wrote: | | The highest they got was 110*f with ambients about 70*. |
That's about 80 degrees cooler than before the intercooler install so that should be the answer to the lean problem you're having now unless it was present before. You should have gained at least 20 hp with a temp drop like that.
I can see the racing slicks slowing you down if they're a good bit taller than what you previously ran, but you would think the cooler intake charge would counter that.
I would consider wrapping the exhaust pipe to the turbo to reduce the loss of energy from exhaust cooling along the path, it really does make a difference since the exhaust volume contracts on cooling the same way the intake charge does.
You also need to make some tuning adjustments for the water injection with the lower inlet temps.
Here is an excellent read on water/meth injection with a calculator to help with setting flow rate: http://www.rbracing-rsr.com/waterinjection.html
What diameter pipe are you using to and from the turbo and what are your turbo specs?
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89jyturbo
Mboard Overdose
Joined: 03 Sep 2004
Posts: 964
Location: Lancaster, Pennsylvania
1989 Cavalier Z24
1989 Other
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The tune is too fat. I swapped to larger injectors and kept it rich for safety. I was leaning the tune after each pass. (began at 11.0:1 and ended up at 11.8:1 AFR). The tires are an inch taller than the old ones. Comparing datalogs on top of each other I can see I am about 1-1.5psi lower manifold pressure across the run since the IC install, so I think that is pressure drop across the IC core (my WG sense is on the compressor outlet).
Turbo is a TO4E 50 trim compressor, garret T3 stage II turbine wheel, .63a/r turbine housing. Boost response is excellent, though I only see 7psi of boost in first gear. I may try some wrap on the exhaust plumbing- you feel it will be worth it? I have exactly a 2.0:1 turbine inlet to boost ratio at full song.
Charge pipe is 2.0" up to the IC, where it increases to 2.5".
I wish I had more than 2 weeks to try these things before drag week. I did too many changes this last time without testing each individually, so I can't say exactly where it lost power. The nice thing is that with Megasquirt's datalogger I can overlay logs and easily see if there is a change in the rpm 'ramps' (a steeper ramp means more power, obviousely).
Overall though I really can't complain. The car is driving perfectly, the A/C is cold, and it made four clean passes down the drag strip. Its ready for drag week.
_________________
www.khturbo.net
1989 Z24 5-speed
'02 3400 V6, 10psi of Turbo
Best 1/4- 12.2 at 119
328HP/352TQ to the wheels
HOT ROD Drag Week 2008 |
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|
Back to top |
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josephupson
Dedicated Member
Joined: 21 May 2006
Posts: 145
Location: home, Florida
1986 Other
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| 89jyturbo wrote: | The tune is too fat. I swapped to larger injectors and kept it rich for safety. I was leaning the tune after each pass. (began at 11.0:1 and ended up at 11.8:1 AFR). The tires are an inch taller than the old ones. Comparing datalogs on top of each other I can see I am about 1-1.5psi lower manifold pressure across the run since the IC install, so I think that is pressure drop across the IC core (my WG sense is on the compressor outlet).
Turbo is a TO4E 50 trim compressor, garret T3 stage II turbine wheel, .63a/r turbine housing. Boost response is excellent, though I only see 7psi of boost in first gear. I may try some wrap on the exhaust plumbing- you feel it will be worth it? I have exactly a 2.0:1 turbine inlet to boost ratio at full song.
Charge pipe is 2.0" up to the IC, where it increases to 2.5".
I wish I had more than 2 weeks to try these things before drag week. I did too many changes this last time without testing each individually, so I can't say exactly where it lost power. The nice thing is that with Megasquirt's datalogger I can overlay logs and easily see if there is a change in the rpm 'ramps' (a steeper ramp means more power, obviousely).
Overall though I really can't complain. The car is driving perfectly, the A/C is cold, and it made four clean passes down the drag strip. Its ready for drag week. |
Given the tendency to stretch to a greater diameter during the run I agree that the tires are very likely to have slowed you down with a .5 increase in radius from the start.
1:1 exh to intake pressure ratio at full boost is ideal so if you intend to increase boost you will probably need to move up to the next turbine size, I don't have Maximum boost here with me to check but I believe 2:1 is about as high as you want to go on the ratio.
I would still paint the exhaust pipe for corrosion protection and wrap it, during tune changes at idle I could hear my turbos spool up in response to leaning out the air fuel mixture making the exh temps higher. I also have two exh temp sensors, gauge & data logger but have not recorded it in a test drive yet.
The calculations performed in turbocalc show that your turbo is to small for your engine on the cold side with boost level points falling at the bottom of the compressor MAP and going off it to the right just below 5000 rpm and the 50% efficiency island.
The points for my engine are in about the same place except they're still on th MAP however a boost pressure increase to ~12 psi puts them in the 70% island (.60 T3) with peak rpm posting at the edge.
The TO4E 50 compressors I plan to switch to are ideal in that from 12-21 psi at my peak rpm of 6500 the boost point sits in the middle 78% effieciency iland. Our non-intercooled inlet temps being so close; yours 194 and mine 212 deg at 7 psi have a very strong corralation regarding the efficiency and there's no doubt if your turbo had been front mount the inlet air temp would be even higher without the intercooler from loss of cooling effect with the long charge pipe.
You are almost there, and you certainly are right, to many changes at once almost certainly creates more problems than they fix. I'm hoping I haven't damaged my engine from doing the same thing in the chip during the last test drive before leaving home where I experienced detonation for the first time under boost and some backfire and all but lost the 1-2 shift tire chirp I had in addition to a near stall on take off that resulted.
I have an intercooler and water injection kit to install and may even look into an intercooler sprayer water or CO2 to maximize intercooler efficiency.
The little 4 cyl turbo cars are packing some serious power, I wondered onto the Solstice forum and those guys are doing minor to moderate upgrades that are putting them in the 350 hp at the wheels mark to as high as 400 hp on bone stock engines and yes larger intercoolers with sprayers are involved in some.
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91cavgt
Addicted Member
Joined: 01 Aug 2002
Posts: 372
Location: Texas
1989 Sunbird GT Convertible
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Only 18 degrees of timing? Wow, I've got Wagonstein set to run 24 degrees of advance right now at 10 psi of boost. But, Wagonstein has a nice cam that decreases cylinder pressure, and it's also running richer air/fuel ratios of 11.5:1
Great times though!!! VERY nice!!!
_________________
89 Pontiac Sunbird GT Turbo Convertible <-- old car
91 Cavalier "GT" <-- old car, I miss her
91 Cavalier Wagonstein <-- 3.2L cammed and turbocharged goodness! |
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mars_man
Silver Bullet
Joined: 16 Oct 2001
Posts: 3079
Location: Chelmsford, ON
1991 Cavalier Z24
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I beg to differ about the larger tires, I think the taller the better. I should be able to test this thoery out though, soon enough.
I have 235/60-14's and I should be trying out a set of 215/65-15's real soon.
First gear on our cars is soo damn low! this hurts us alot. Not as bad on cars that have a cam, and make good power to 6500 +, but on a stock car, that signs off early, that 1-2 shift happens WAY early. (and hard to get traction).
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12.215 @ 118.20 |
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josephupson
Dedicated Member
Joined: 21 May 2006
Posts: 145
Location: home, Florida
1986 Other
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| mars_man wrote: | I beg to differ about the larger tires, I think the taller the better. I should be able to test this thoery out though, soon enough.
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You can differ, but the fact of the matter is the more you increase the tire height the closer you get to attempting to launch in second gear as opposed to first. The gear ratio effect is the same whether you do it with tire size changes or gears.
The best way to approach traction issues via tires is to maximize the tire width first and if that's not enough then change tire height. Increasing tire height by 1" or radius by 1/2" to address traction problems is a big jump. A 1/4" would be better, especially since the engines are dropping off around 5500 rpm, you may not have enough power and time to recover the loss of speed off the line from the larger tire to make it worth the investment.
I believe had he not made the other upgrades particularly the intercooler his times would have been much worse and if he had just done the intercooler alone much better. You can assume a 1% hp increase for every 11 degree drop in inlet temps and on a 300 hp motor with an 80 deg temp drop that's about 22 hp.
I remember switching from a 215/60 14 to a 235/60 14 and being able to tell immediately upon driving the car that it did not accelerate as fast as it did before the change.
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